My Central heating!

Just put her in another room... Oh sorry you meant the central heating boiler !! Have you tried putting surge protection socket in for the PC power supply. Lots of 4 ways have this incorporated these days.

------------------
Regards

Keith

It's on a surge protector, but I guess it doesn't give a completely even flow of power.
(BTW the "old boiler" never gave me any trouble - shouldn't have allowed my head to be turned by this younger model!)

Looks like you might need to go the whole hog with a UPS.

Other than that, try upgrading the shielding around the link between your pc and camera, or try a Faraday Cage around the Boiler (Earthed very fine chicken mesh should do it).

Boilers pull a lot of current when lighting up(not enough to drop your pc out), and can also create RF interference which could cut the link.

If your PC PSU is dropping slightly, this could lose a small amount of current to your firewire card, to cause the dropouts.
Have you tried another camera (the Firewire i/f could be suspect), or another firewire card?

Just a few typical engineer type points!

Stuart

This is not a surge problem - so that will make no difference. This is a power "brown-out" or drop in voltage that it sounds like your experiencing. You need to be careful that it does not effect more than just your editing it could drop your PC momentarily which disks in particular will not like.

If it is a voltage drop you've got, you could try moving the PC power to a supply of its own - if possible (not on a xx-way extension sharing with other things) - This may work - it may not - it may not be an option for you.

So you have 3 choices

- always work on the PC with the boiler off (nippy in winter - get some fingerless mitts)

- Invest in a "Line Interactive" UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply)for your PC & Camera - It has to be Line Interactive to give the Voltage Regulation you are looking for to correct the voltage drops. Also look for one that does not use the battery to regulate voltage otherwise you will be limited to the battery life of the UPS (not very long for most UPS these days!) If you do go for a UPS make sure that it has enough outputs that provide regulation for the equipment you wish to connect to (some only have 1 that does regulation plus battery back-up plus surge protection). Also check you get the correct VA rating of UPS for all the equipment you want to connect to it - add together the VA ratings of all the equipment to find what you'll need.

- Get a generator with built in voltage regulator (Expensive - cheaper to get yet another boiler!)

[This message has been edited by elhit2 (edited 12 April 2002).]

Wow - the stuff you guys know about never ceases to amaze me!

Before I fork out for the UPS, a couple of quick questions-
The ones I've seen all seem to use a battery back-up - does that recharge itself, or will it keep running down until its' dead if its intermittently used like this?
Secondly, I'm intrigued by the RF interference you've mentioned - could this explain why the radio glitches also when the boilers on? If so, is the cable shielding you talk of to help that - and if so, how do I go about it? Unfortunately I have no other cam, and the firewire card is built in (iMac).

Thanks for your help fellas.

I think your problem is RFI. New boilers don’t have pilot light like the old ones used to. You can check by looking in the small window on the front of the boiler when its off, no blue glow no pilot light. New boilers use a HV spark to ignite the gas which create an enormous amount of RF interference.

Most boilers actually don’t take a great deal of current, much much less than say for example a Kettle. A good test you can do to see if the problem is a mains brownout or air borne is start a capture then turn your kettle on then off. Kettles aren’t a very inductive load so will produce very little RF. If your capture still stops then, I was wrong and you will need a UPS or similar. But I’m quite sure it will be RFI and only good shielding will cure this as it is air borne.

Another giveaway would be. Do you see slight momentary (sparkly looking) interference on your TV when the boiler cuts in and out or on a radio near by on the MW band. If you do this also points the finger to RFI. If it is really bad I would get the fitters back to check the boiler as it shouldn’t be that bad, there are strict regulations to the amount of RFI electrical equipment is allowed to emit.

The suggestion to check that the boiler and its case is properly earthed made by Stuart was a good one.

You could also try a new FireWire cable that has better shielding, Belkin do some good ones.

I hope this helps.. Good luck.

GG

You beat me to it with your last post.

Certainly sounds like RFI if your radio is affected. I wouldn't splash out on a UPS just yet.

GG

Are you sure it is theboiler and not the thermostat. My new boiler has a room stat which communicates with the boiler by transmitting a radio signal (no wires, no redecorating problems). I am no electronics expert but could these signals somehow be affecting either the cam or the computer.
Just a thought.

Are you sure it is theboiler and not the thermostat. My new boiler has a room stat which communicates with the boiler by transmitting a radio signal (no wires, no redecorating problems). I am no electronics expert but could these signals somehow be affecting either the cam or the computer.
Just a thought.

quote:Originally posted by bryanscott:
My new boiler has a room stat which communicates with the boiler by transmitting a radio signal (no wires, no redecorating problems).

That’s pretty neat.

How often do you need to change the battery in the thermostat though?

Back to your question
The RF emitted from the thermostat would be very low especially if you want to make the battery last.

A mobile phone would generate much more RF energy, and the peak output from a Mobile is only about 5Watt Max.

We are bathed in radio signals all the time but most are controlled narrowband low energy. RFI from a spark can generate high energy across a broad spectrum at close range. This can cause havoc with electronic equipment.

rgds,

GG

Quick, cheap and easy - turn the thermostat right down when you are editing (it will also help keep you alert if the temp is not 20c +)!

Regards

I think this is less about power surges and more about earthing. If your boiler is discharging sharp surges (spikes) to the houses earth (which is the same common rail earth that surrounds your computer casing, camera casing and i-link cable sheild) it could disrupt signals being sent in signal cables like the i-link or even a printer cable if they were big enough.

Short of getting an osciloscope to test your house's earth i cant think how you could measure and confirm that this is happening but the symptoms all point to the boiler discharging a spike to earth probably when it comes on or off. have a listen if you can hear the distinctive subtle crack of a tiny spark near the boiler (like those pizo cigarette lighters) but this is probably too quite to hear over a rumbelling boiler.

And as far as solutions Im not really sure what to suggest, The boiler should comply to FCC regulations and therefore if it is causing the problem it is because it has been badly installed or your houses earth isnt deep enough. Get your plumber back in; but he/she may not know what they have done and how to fix it. Ask him to install some supressors (big resitors between the boiler and its earth - which "subdue the spike" enough for your computer to cope with it) - I dont know if this can be done on a boiler because its pipes are its earth?

As an act of desperation you could try running you computer and camera off the same 4way mains adapter plugged into one socket. (ie not plugged into the wall in 2 different sockets) this shouldn't make a difference unless your ring main is badly installed, but its worth giving a go.

If it gets too cold to have the heating off while you edit, keep it on all the time. The spike should only occur when the heating toggles from off to on or vice versa so as long as its not flitting around the thermostat's temp it shouldn't interfear.

Definitely dont run the camera off battery becasue if the earth is shifting anything on battery is not going to be shifting with it.

If you had an RCCD fitted in line with the Boiler, then that would be likely to drop out frequently if the boiler is discharging to earth.

If a battery radio is picking up noise from your boiler, then the boiler is giving off RFI. If it is, then there is something wrong, either with the fitting, or with the boiler itself. Your boiler should be CE marked, which includes regulations on the RFI given off by the boiler. I would get the fitters back to check, and if neccessary, replace the boiler. You might even have to think about Trading standards.

This level of RFI is not just an inconvenience, it could even be dangerous. RF of the levels given off by mobile phones , and emergency services radios has been known to cause interference to medical devices. This is why you should ALWAYS switch off your mobile when entering a Hospital.If your central heating is giving off even larger spikes of RF, then there is the possibility of problems with such things as home dialysis, pacemakers etc.

One of my hobbyhorses I'm afraid, I'm a hospital technician

Stuart

Again, thanks for your knowledgeable replies.
The first thing I'm going to do I think is get a new firewire cable, as this seems the easiest and cheapest to try first. I shall also get the engineer to check the boiler with regard to all the points made so far, just to make sure ther's no problem with it.
I'll let you know how I'm going, but please feel free to keep posting!

Hmm.. been looking at firewire cables, and it seems that the best shielding is 'quad' shielding, or S400 - but thats what the firewire cable I use is, so it seems that won't help? Unless anyone knows of better shielded cables?

quote:Originally posted by AndyPag:
Ask him to install some supressors (big resitors between the boiler and its earth - which "subdue the spike" enough for your computer to cope with it)

Definitely don’t run the camera off battery because if the earth is shifting anything on battery is not going to be shifting with it.

I hate to be picky but Suppressors are capacitors not resistors.
And NEVER connect a resistor between any equipment and proper earth, this will lift the earth of the equipment further away from proper earth this could be dangerous and would probably make the RFI problem worse.

The boiler case should be a good enough faraday cage to eliminate RFI so perhaps the earth to the boiler isn't good enough.

The only other thing I though of was. Years ago we had a thermostat that arced as it turned on, this was enough to crash my old PC, admittedly it had no sides on the case which didn't help, but putting a suppressor across the contacts cured this.

Maybe its your thermostat if not the boiler. Did they fit a new thermostat as well?

Rgds

GG

Yes, they fitted a new room thermostat (a wired in one). They also changed it for another one when I first told them about the problem, which had no effect.

BTW, the radio definately crackles even running off battery, so I guess we're in the ball park here.

I've found the spec sheets of the boiler, but frankly I don't know what I'm looking for. I'll call the manufacturer on Monday (and probably the fitter - although I don't hold out much hope with him!), but meantime I'd really like to find out all I can.
Thanks again.

It could be worth having the quality of the earthing for your incoming electricity supply checked. Older houses used to be earthed through a connection to the incoming water pipe, and maybe this has been disturbed by your plumbers.

Modern installations have a solid earth connection brought in by the electricity supply company. I believe they may provide a free (or low cost) service to check earth connection efficiency as a safety policy.

Good luck. NL

had the same problem with the Pinnacle DV300. Switching on lights, heating, etc caused a loss in connection and a re-boot of the computer. Tried UPS etc but finished up buying the DV500 plus, no problems and now don't have to get up early before the heating switched on. Expensive cure!

Harry

A few thoughts. First, I understand it’s usually better to deal with any interference at the source (ie the boiler) and GC’s right about the strict RFI (Radio Frequency Interference - IHA) regulations and these apply to both system components and complete installations. Second, have you tried capturing with the camera powered by battery? I’m not so sure about AndyPag’s comment. I feel the camcorder ground WILL follow the PC through the DV link and will also avoid the earth loop. Nothing lost in trying it. Try coiling the DV cable to make it appear short and less susceptible to interference. bryanscott & GC’s comments about the thermostat may also be significant. I’ve known them give RFI problems, and the switch-on/off current and therefore the wired sort have caused these. I would be surprised if the transmitter variety cause problems. Incidentally, the battery in this sort of thing can easily last the shelf life of the battery because the unit can spend 99.99% of it’s life in ‘sleep mode’, waking up, perhaps for a millisecond once a minute to check and (if necessary) report on the current temperature. Transmitting burglar and smoke alarms can use the same principle. Richard.

Interesting comment above about coiling the lead to make it 'appear' shorter. Won't the coils increase the transformer effect and hence any pickup? ;)

NL

Yes - tried with cam on battery, same prob.
Incidentally, interference occurs as boiler goes on or off, maybe thermostat theory is a good one.
I'm waiting on a new firewire lead (with hopefully better shielding), and the heating engineer is due at any minute - I'll keep you posted!

Interesting thread (no I'm not taking the P$$$).

WB

Quick update:-

New Belkin firewire cable - won't work at all, sending back.

Engineer didn't have a clue, I've since heard back from manufacturer who are going to liase and if necessary come out themselves.

I'll keep you posted!

Hi.

Had a quick look in Maplins catalogue.

Only comes to about £3.
Get the engineer to stick a proper X class capacitor across the contacts of the thermostat, this will cut out any possible arcing here.

No. FA21X or FA22Y

and a

No. HW07H delta capacitor network (three capacitors in a triangular arrangement, connected between earth, live and neutral) on the mains input to the boiler.

This should do it.

GG

Thanks for your time on that - I'll suggest to him.
The other thing they may try apparently is - and I quote (the manufacturer) "Some installations where interference has occurred, have benefited by having a resistor/filter fitted to the supply". All greek to me.

He probably means the delta suppressor as above or similar.

Sounds like it anyway.

Good luck

GG

[This message has been edited by GG (edited 18 April 2002).]

GC

Just out of curiosity, I had a look at Maplin.co.uk and searched for the three product codes you suggest - just 'cos I'm like that. All responses were "This item has been discontinued"!

Richard.

So it would seem,
They are definatly in the catalog I have here. I only picked them from Maplins as their catalog was to hand.
CPC and RS both do them too. Or probably your local electrical store. Maybe not the big diy stores though.

GG

Just a thought...

To identify once and for all whether it is the boiler, thermostat or something else.... you could walk around with the portable radio you talked about. The interference should be a lot worse near the source of the RFI source. You should be able to tell if it is worse near the boiler or the thermostat....

Would give you a bit more of a clue as to where to concentrate your solutions...

Good Luck in solving this

Mike

Latest news:-

The manufacturers are coming on Monday - they say they have more diagnostics equipment and the like than the installers. I shall talk to them about all the (very kind) suggestions that have been made here. Check back for more news then!

Hope I'm not too late in posting a reply, there are some good answers, but none seem to hit the spot for me.

As only answers relating to the Central heating side have been discussed, how about the Hot water side of things, iMike? there will be a cylinder stat. IF this does not drop your firewire connection the answer is almost certainly the room stat, it may need a shunt resister over the Live connection and the Load, this is on the room stat.

Sorry Nigel, Houses DO NOT have their earthing connected to the water pipe, this is Earth Bonding. The latest edition of the Electrical wiring regulations is really stringent on this. Any premises wired over 2 years ago would almost always fail on the earthing!

Stuart V

RCD's do not always trip out, the current (milli-amps) concerned may be below the devices range look on the device and it will say test periodically, by the test button This will not give a specific current to "trip" it.

iMike

Was the plumber you employed CORGI registrered? I hope so, though I doubt it was wired by a qualified Electrician to BS 7671, the IEE Wiring regulations.
Plumbers do not generally have the testing equipment to deal with testing -maybe a neon screwdriver! So the Boiler maker will have better testers, The test would be a earth loop impediance test, this would prove the earthing back to the main earth block, from the boilers source, i.e. Plug Socket or Fused Spur which should be fused down to 3amps. If plastic piping was used this would mean EVERY rad should have a earthing connection to bond it, water is a conductor and the electrical current would be transfered through the water.

I apologise for my answers being biased.

Good luck on sorting it out

Philip

Good point - I have checked, and the interference occurs whenever boiler fires up or shuts down, be it for hot water or heating.

It was all installed by British Gas.

more likey the pump then... if it is start up AND shutdown... there would be no spark needed ignition for shutdown.....

or one of the thermostats

Update:-

Bod came and changed the circuit board, the fan and the potentiometer, to no avail.
Finally narrowed it down though - he temporarily wired the boiler separately from the system, and problem disappeared, meaning boiler itself OK. He thinks there's a problem with the wiring/connections somewhere (prob. near the pump), a dodgy neutral connection apparently. The original installers are coming back tomorrow to check the wiring.

The saga continues:-

British Gas today- looked at wiring, changed pump, fitted suppressor - no change. They have contacted the maker and will get back to me.

Getting bored with this now...

iMike,

Don't give up now, I'm impressed with dogged determination, and intrigued to learn what the final answer is !!

It's a grippning story !!! one that could run for ages (sorry Imike)

S'truth, I've only just read this thread, and not all of it at that.

My money's on RFI caused by switching. My central heating emits a burst of rf, about 3 seconds long, every time it ignites (there's a pilot running, so it's not spark ignition, so I guess it's the motorised valves turning). Enough to blat out an old fm radio in the bedroom. It's never caused any PC problem that I could identify, but it travels a long way and could well get into a less-than-perfect 1394 cable, e.g. one with a broken earth at one end. Theoretically, 1394 signals are immune to rfi because of the way the signals are sent (balanced on one twisted pair, and phase-reversed but balanced on the other pair) which cancels radiation from the cable and rejects radiation into it, so I don't think it would get into the cable itself, unless a wire is broken.

Wednesday Bulletin:-

Had more engineers round today - one from installer and one from manufacturer. This time they fitted a supressor in the boiler itself - did nothing.

I think they've finally realised they need to send an electrical specialist rather than a gas one, so they've gone away to organise, probably to re-wire the whole thing separate from the house circuit (on its' own spur or something).

I'm just hoping my replacement firewire lead magically solves it, so I don't have to root up the floorboards again!

Replacement cable came... and went (back). Same problem as last one (won't stay connected) - they think it must have been a bad batch (dents in cable from too tight clips), so now awaiting another from Belkin. And no guarantee it'll solve my heating problem....(I'm waiting to see before I tell them to re-wire the whole heating system).

It's all gone very quiet - what happened

Sorry - was going to post an update shortly.

I'm still trying to get a better shielded firewire cable just in case that works, before I get them to re-wire the whole system- unfortunately I've been through four Belkin cables, none of which will work at all with my set-up, which has had me and Belkin stumped. I'm just ordering another brand today, so I'll let you know what happens (although everything I've touched lately seems to go to s**t!).

Well - true to form - got a different brand of cable - that didn't work at all, either. Seems like my iMac only wants to play with an Apple cable.
However, since the darn thing now decides to have total power failures at the most inopportune moments, its going in to be looked at - if I'm lucky, all these problems will have been caused by one fault, and all will be blue skies upon its return! (yeah right)

.... and?

I got into this thread for the first time today and found it riveting! Then I discover there's no conclusion. (Note to diary - check threads have ends before starting to read!)

Anyway - to add my two-halfpenny worth (what's the post decimilsation equivalent?) if the problem is at boiler fire-up and shut down - a couple of questions comed to my mind ..

Is this time-switch-on to time-switch off? Could be the time switch?

Does this still occur with the room stat off but when the boiler fires up / down on tank temperature? Could be the tank stat?

I was contemplating new central heating - currently going back to the wood-burning fire idea. No RF from striking a match .... to my knowledge.

D

Sorry there's no conclusion - that's just to keep the punters hanging on for a sequel!

The only news is that the computer came back fixed (an unrelated power issue). They did check my firewire cable while they were at it, which worked fine on my Mac with their camcorder, so it would seem I now need to get my camcorder looked at, but I've been waiting for an oppurtune time when I can be without it.

Wether or not this is affecting the (original) heating problem I would doubt, but I want to sort it first just to eliminate one at a time.
Other than that, its back to B'Gas to have the wiring re-done. (the stats and everything were checked, changed, isolated etc - you name it!)

More news soon I promise- I WILL NOT BE DEFEATED!

Just came across this old thread from a Google search. I seem to have this problem with my (oil fired) central heating, each time it fires up, my connection with my mixing desk drops. I am using a Presonus 16.0.2  which uses a Firewire 400 connection for its sound card side. I have had the desk a few years, the boiler too, but this problem has only seemed to have occurred this year. So I have no idea why this is suddenly happening... my first thought was maybe something coming through the mains, or a voltage drop, or failing card. So I have ordered a new Firewire card for my PC which has an internally plug-able power supply for extra stability, to see if that will help the situation. (It also has a Texas Instruments chipset which anyway is supposed to be better for audio use)
I noticed in one of the posts above the problem went away when the central heating was used with a separate power supply. This makes me suspect it might be a supply problem rather than air-borne RFC, but I'm no electrical expert.
Anyway if the new Firewire card does the trick I'll post back... I wonder if the original thread poster got to the bottom of it though?

Ok ... Day and a half using the new firewire card and the problem so far seems to be solved! Hope I'm not tempting fate replying to myself so early :)