March 2, 2012 - 20:27
It doesn’t seem possible to easily reactivate my old account after the hacking incident, so time to evolve into infocus2!
Due to regular work which doesn’t need me to own a camera, plus camerawork with other people’s equipment, I didn’t think it would be worthwhile getting a new professional HD camera. But I’ve recently had to reconsider that, so the question becomes…. what?
From the thread title, the favourite must be the PMW320….. but I want to run it past everybody on the forum in case I’ve overlooked something.
Requirements are that it must be shouldermount and capable of taking pro V-lock accessories and batteries, and must have HD-SDI out. Highly desirable is the ability to operate multi-format, including SD. Low power consumption would also be useful.
Oh – and price is important! I would much prefer the PMW500 (which I’m told is the shouldermount camera that most people who need a pro shouldermount camera seem to be buying at the moment) or the PMW350 failing that. But I can’t justify the price difference. The only other camera comparable in price seems to be Panasonics HPX371, but it’s only in the area of codec that that seems to have the edge, and even then it brings the issues of P2.
I’d feel happier if it had the fully approved 50Mbs codec – but it doesn’t…… So, any thoughts? Am I missing anything obvious?
March 2, 2012 - 23:59
#1
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Well I am P2 biased but have had my original HPX301 camera for three years now and I still love it as it still delivers the goods in SD and HD.
Yes the 371 was brought out to improve on it but to be honnest most of it was to counter the NTSC side of things and the PAP 2 filter to cure the extra problems basically gives you a 301 again.
There are still some 301's around and you can get them for very low cost and if you are happy to go with the 1/3" chip (no one has ever asked me anyway) then it would put you into the full AVC intra 100 camp and if like me you sometimes need a 2/3" broadcast camera just hire in a 3700 or 3100.
I can't fault the P2 system and whilst the initial investment was large I am still using the same cards I bought three years ago and hevent lost a single frame.
There is a new HPX301 here:
LIke you if I was buying a full broadcast 2/3" camera the 500 seems to be the one to go for although the HPX3100 is also superb, panasonic may be bringing oout something to replace the 500/371 this year but I suspect it will be based on the 3100 as the form factor for all their cameras is based on that casing.
The 320 and 350 are also good camera's but didn;t exist when I chose P2 three years ago but as you know you need to add extra kit to get the broadcast spec but as said I have never had anyone query the 1/3" chip and they will be used a lot inc 3D at this years big sports event in the summer.
March 3, 2012 - 01:58
#2
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Gary Nattrass wrote:
I can't fault the P2 system and whilst the initial investment was large I am still using the same cards I bought three years ago and hevent lost a single frame.
When | spoke about "issues" with P2 it was little to do with it not working properly, more about relative cost, proprietary nature, and inability to do things like give recorded cards away to a producer if desired. (With SxS it's easy to dub SxS to SD in camera if you don't want to shoot to SD direct.) It's also possible to drop SD or SxS cards straight into a laptop, P2 needs a reader.
Gary Nattrass wrote:
There is a new HPX301 here:
Thanks, but I've been quoted not much more for a PMW320 at a dealer with extremely good support facilities not far away. With the difference in memory costs, the 320 should even work out a bit cheaper!
Gary Nattrass wrote:
LIke you if I was buying a full broadcast 2/3" camera the 500 seems to be the one to go for although the HPX3100 is also superb, panasonic may be bringing oout something to replace the 500/371 this year but I suspect it will be based on the 3100 as the form factor for all their cameras is based on that casing.
The quite unbelievable omission of the HPX3000 series is the lack of a 720p recording mode, and I believe the lack of any offspeed capabilities in the 3100? That is one huge headline advantage of the PMW500 - limited offspeed in 1080 mode, and normal slo-mo in 720 recording. And 720p capability is neccessary for me, so the 3100 would be a non-starter anyway - apart (like the PMW500!) from the price.
Gary Nattrass wrote:
The 320 and 350 are also good camera's but didn;t exist when I chose P2 three years ago but as you know you need to add extra kit to get the broadcast spec ..........
From a colleagues report I saw a while ago, the front end differences made more difference than the codec differences - you could see them in raw footage, unlike the codec differences. "Broadcast spec" is a strange animal..... :)
If I was in this position myself three years ago, then yes, it's probably the 301 I'd be going for. Today, it's not that the 371 is a bad camera - just that the 320 seems better in most respects for about the same price.
I only wish it had 50Mbs recording, which would totally clinch the choice. That seems to be becoming the de facto preferred norm in the UK, especially with the XF300 and C300 from Canon. I've just been forwarded an interesting link about rental popularity - http://www.televisual.com/read-online/Top-10-Rental-Cameras_rid-32.html - which emphasises this point. Obviously it reflects the situation in the last year, not what WILL happen, but as it says, the camera it expects to leap up the table are the PMW500 and for the C300 to enter at a high placing next year.
I have to say I'm a little surprised - I'd have expected the PMW350 to be more poular than the 500, given the price difference.
March 3, 2012 - 10:00
#3
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Well then you need a 320 or even better a 500 but you pays yer money and makes your choices, that is why I went P2 three years ago as sony havent got their act together and have blurred the market with too many models in too short a time with still no broadcast codec on most of them.
Bear in mind there were no SXS shoulder mount cameras three years ago only the EX1 or 3 and for eng style it was mostly disc based, three years on disc has virtually been dropped and SXS is the std albeit with non broadcast codecs on the lower end cameras. Even the F3 doesn't have full broadcast spec but that is all the maddness of the manic shallow DOF brigade who wish to do cinematic imagery for vimeo.
As far as I have summarised the front end may have an effect but with sony product that still doesnt give me what I want, a broadcast camera that does SD and HD in all formats with a broadcast codec and recording system that is tried and tested. 1/3" chips are widely accepted and the canon and panasonic cameras are used on numerous productions, as I said no one in boradcast has ever asked me or queried my 301 or 371.
The 350 isn't popular as has 2/3" CMOS chips and people think it is too expensive and still doesn't have a full spec codec system, if you are going to spend that much you might as well get a 3100 which is the camera of choice for the SKY news guys or get a 500 which gives you full doco and features compatibility.
If I were buying today it would still have to be the 371 as it still deivers all that I need for less than £10k all in with batts and cards etc, the 320 needs an external recorder as does the 350 but I would not be investing in a 500 or 3100 unless I had a major broadcast contract or do what I do now just hire a 3700 or 3100 in if I need it.
I take all your points regarding P2 but as said I am happy with it and personally prefer the pictures from panasonic cameras as they have a more natual look, even the 301 can look like the larger 3700 or the tape based cameras they use on planet earth etc.
If you want a 320 then just go and buy one as like most cameramen you seem set on the sony camp and happy to accept their marketing compromises until they release a sub 2/3" CCD or CMOS camera with a full spec codec, to flip it panasonic need to release a sub £10k 2/3" or large format camera with P2 and that may be happening soon but in the meantime we are in the hands of the marketing departments and have to make our decisions based on that and what is on the market now.
March 3, 2012 - 10:11
#4
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
P.S forgot to say my P2 reader is a 10 year old G4 powerbook I find that using the camera can hold things up and it is easier to dump P2 to hard drives or SD using this system as it allows me to keep shooting especially as recently done for mediaset on sports coverage.
I also have a laptop PC that can be used for this function and you would need similar to do this with SXS with an express card laptop.
The 301/371 has a USB connector and can hook up a hard drive this way if I need to dump to disc for the production and that works out a lot more cost effective and practical than SD cards as they all have their own USB drives to hand.
March 3, 2012 - 10:19
#5
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Btw if canon make a S300 shoulder mount version of their current C300 camera they could corner the market but then most ENG cameramen don't want or need most of their shots out of focus! ;0)
I think overall the 500 seems to be the one most people are going for but as always at a cost and for me being on P2 already I would buy a second hand 3700 or a 3100 as I have 720p varicam on my 301 and 371.
Now I wonders if sony will bring out an SXS 50mbs 450 or 570???
March 3, 2012 - 10:36
#6
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Interesting to read the hire list and it shows that even though sony's marketing dept are pushing us towards SXS only, the 700 and 800 are still very popular as the cheap media and hand it to the client way at the end of the day is still a very important workflow.
The Alexa is to as basically you can't easily buy one and virtually all drama prods hire their kit anyway, the EX3 and XF305 are there as they are low cost and do the corporate/run and gun perfectly.
We shall see and who knows those clever guys at panasonic may trump everyone and do something radical with their recording medium as P2 must be due a replacement soon as well and with canon putting full broadcast spec codecs on low cost cards maybe that is now the way they all have to go.
March 3, 2012 - 18:52
#7
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Sorry for interjecting here. I would say that both Sony and Panasonic are in a bit of a blather. One gives you the bigger chips, and the other gives you the higher bitrate codec. I think that both of them should wake up and realise that the usage for an individual camera needs to be that much more diverse these days.
I think that the reason the 500 is more expensive than the 350 is because it has a CCD block instead of CMOS.
March 3, 2012 - 23:12
#8
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Gary Nattrass wrote:
If you want a 320 then just go and buy one as like most cameramen you seem set on the sony camp and happy to accept their marketing compromises until they release a sub 2/3" CCD or CMOS camera with a full spec codec, .........
Oh now, that's not fair! Imminently having to fork out a lot of money focuses the mind wonderfully, and trust me it pushes any fan boy thoughts out of the head. If you could show me a camera from ANY manufacturer that fully fitted that bill, that'd be it. That's business.
"Happy to accept their marketing compromises"? No, and earlier on I made it quite clear that I would be much happier if Sony and the 320 used the 50Mbs codec. But I would say I'm happier to accept their marketing compromises than those of other manufacturers, and in the context of what you are saying that includes Panasonic. The 371 may not be compromised in terms of codec - but is compromised in terms of front end performance, from what I saw a while ago. I consider that far more significant than codec - I recall the front end differences being visible on straight from camera material, not so codec differences.
I'd like to think cameramen are a fairly hard headed bunch and not likely to do things on a whim. Business is business. I agree with you that most seem to prefer Sony – but may that not reflect a fact that Sony are seen as market leaders, and maybe the least compromised? I also disagree that we seem as inflexible as you make out. Canon have made great inroads into the market recently with the XF300 and now the C300, and users have switched allegiencies with little ado – when they sniff something better. Same to the Alexa at the top of the market. If Panasonic really did come out with a winner, don’t you think users would simply start using them as well? Fact is, a total omission of any Panasonic camera now from the top ten most hired cameras of the year in the UK.
Freeflow is proably right when he says “that both Sony and Panasonic are in a bit of a blather”. But the only two possibilities for me (yet come across) come from them, and I just feel it’s Sony whose blather is the smallest!
Gary Nattrass wrote:
........ even though sony's marketing dept are pushing us towards SXS only, the 700 and 800 are still very popular as the cheap media and hand it to the client way at the end of the day is still a very important workflow
I remember very strongly a press interview from NAB around 2004 (?) when XDCAM and P2 were very new concepts. Sony were asked “what about solid state?” and they far from ruled it out, but instead replied “we don’t think the time is right yet”. The clear implication was that solid state would become increasingly important – the more so as time went on.
Strategically, I think Sony come out the clear winners. The early XDCAM and P2 offerings each left differing things to be desired, and many users just rode out tape for a bit longer than they may have expected. Now, Sony have BOTH disc and solid state offerings with fundamentally the same codecs, and their solid state is inherently more modern in IT terms than P2. As you say, disc has clear benefits in some places – solid state in others. I suspect they’re very happy to have both on sale, not “pushing us towards SXS only”.
I don’t say any of that because of any intrinsic “being in the Sony camp”, rather that they currently come closest to meeting my needs at the moment than any other manufacturer. I’d be quite happy to be fickle if some other make best met my interests, don’t worry!! And if I was after a large sensor camera, would probably be giving my money to Canon, not Sony.
March 5, 2012 - 19:27
#9
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
I think that it would be worth adding that possibly Sony are backed into a corner for a while. Clearly their reasoning behind keeping 50Mb/s off the lower end range of cameras is due to restricting competition against the more expensive models. Thus it is difficult to see how they could release a new 50Mb/s version of a camera such as the 320 without annoying a lot of people. They do need to move on this in some way, that much is clear. But do they have the stomach to do it?
March 5, 2012 - 20:32
#10
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Well I suppose as I keep saying you pays yer money and makes your choice based on the time of purchase and knowledge available.
I bought a 1/3" camera as it is perfectly acceptable and has passed and ticked all the broadcast boxes for me straight out of the box, the 320 and 350 still don't.
Fine you can do side by side comparisons but that is an easy way to dismiss anything and is not how things are tested in broadcast and 1/3" and 1/2" chips are now acceptable.
The hire market is just that and I don't tend to buy things based on what everyone else is hiring but on my own experiences and appraisals, I used to have sony cameras but three years ago after bad experiences with the Z7 and S270 I chose to go panasonic P2 as I personally felt that it was a better system and was better supported across the range. That continues and now if I need a small B camera I have the 250 with the same codecs and features as my 301 and 371.
It means I use the same cards and have the same workflow for all my camera shooting and as said several times I have been very happy with it, my next camera purchase will probably be P2 as well adding a 3100 although I have just seen a 3700 for a good price so that is very tempting. I suspect what will happen though is that a firmware update this year will give us 1080 varicam and all the codec set on the 3100 and that will become the replacement for the HPX500 and 371. OK the 3700 will still be the top of the range but with the 3500 studio/OB camera having the same form factor I can see panasonics logic is their range far better than sonys.
I too would be buying a canon C300 if I needed a large sensor camera as they let panny and sony fight it out to compete with the RED and have got the price level right with full broadcast approved codec.
Forgetting marketing I think the 500 is the best 2/3" camera out there at the moment but I am sure you are like and I may not spend my own money on high end cameras these days as I can do most of my work with the sub £10k cameras I have had for the past three years. But then post NAB we may have a 3100 with full 1080 varicam at a lower cost so we shall see.
March 6, 2012 - 01:15
#11
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Gary Nattrass wrote:
I bought a 1/3" camera as it is perfectly acceptable and has passed and ticked all the broadcast boxes for me straight out of the box, the 320 and 350 still don't.Fine you can do side by side comparisons but that is an easy way to dismiss anything and is not how things are tested in broadcast and 1/3" and 1/2" chips are now acceptable.
I think this is just illustrating the absurdities of the "broadcast acceptable" listing. It seems to be saying that even if you KNOW camera A is better than camera B, a single box not ticked implies "use B, not A". That said, I'm glad I'm not the person who has to make the specifications. However well you aspire to do it, someone will always find an anomaly! :)
In my own case, 35Mbs will be more than adequate for pre-recorded work, and broadcast work is more likely to be using the live HD-SDI output. In which case, the whole codec situation becomes irrelevant, and even if the 1/3" chips of the 371 may be just about considered OK, I know the PMW320 will be better, based on what I've seen.
Gary Nattrass wrote:
The hire market is just that and I don't tend to buy things based on what everyone else is hiring but on my own experiences and appraisals.......
Well, to a point, but there can be very good reasons why certain items are popular and others aren't........ There may also be very sound reasons for going along with the most popular equipment - greater availability and ease of hire if you need to for reasons of extra or replacement cameras etc. And if clients are familiar with camera A, and you have camera A, it's a good starting point.
Gary Nattrass wrote:
That continues and now if I need a small B camera I have the 250 with the same codecs and features as my 301 and 371.
The 250 looks very strongly like they have taken a basic front end designed primarily for the AVCCAM range and just put a P2/AVC-Intra recording setup on it. Used in the AVCCAM range, it seems pretty good - matching the Sony NXCAM range reasonably well. But up against the EX and XF300 - as the 250 is - it doesn't quite cut it, and that's largely down to the lens being servo only, not true manual like the Sony and Canon equivalents.
It looks like " we need a HVX200 successor, but can't afford to develop one from scratch. I know, let's make use of the front end from a lower model". Probably sensible strategy, but as a customer I'll just go for the XF300 or EX.
Gary Nattrass wrote:
But then post NAB we may have a 3100 with full 1080 varicam at a lower cost so we shall see.
Maybe - though it will be academic for me, as will anything that happens at NAB.
Bearing in mind that there is normally a considerable delay between NAB announcements and shipping (let alone teething foibles to overcome) I think they've left it too late. A lot of reequipment decisions have been put off for a number of years, and it's in the last year or so that I believe a lot of people have finally said they can't put it off any longer. A bit like the situation I'm in.
And in the PMW500 a lot of users can now say "at last!" It's the first camera to tick all the boxes. 2/3" and full 1080 recording, and 720 mode with full varispeed. Solid state and fully broadcast compliant recording.
Maybe a full 1080 varicam will be released at NAB - but nowadays it's the 50Mbs codec that's getting the attention, being seen as the most common standard. And that's as much due to Canon as Sony (let alone Ikegami, Convergent Design, and others. Panasonic really needed a 1080 varicam able to be shipped for the last year or so to avoid losing a substantial proportion of their tape Varicam customers. (Surely, Gary, you must be surprised to not see any Varicam in the top ten hire list?)
But all this is a bit of a digression. Leaving the 371 aside, my real question was any alternative to the PMW320, given the requirements. I've looked at Ikegami (2/3" and more of a PMW500 competitor) and JVC (lot to commend it as an EX1 competitor, but not really "true" shouldermount) - anybody got any other ideas?
March 6, 2012 - 01:32
#12
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Don't know why any more discussion is needed the 320 ticks all your boxes!
March 7, 2012 - 18:30
#13
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Well, the box it doesn't tick is fully approved broadcast codec!
Just because I believe the difference between 1/3" and 1/2" front ends is greater than codec differences may be a reason for preferring it to the HPX371, it doesn't mean I'm not aware a box is left unticked!
March 7, 2012 - 22:14
#14
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Tee hee I think we both need a sony PMW 450K !
March 7, 2012 - 22:14
#15
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Tee hee I think we both need a sony PMW 450K !
March 14, 2012 - 20:37
#16
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Just to let you know there is a rumor of a new shoulder mount camera from panasonic for NAB, 1080p and 60 fps are being quoted so I suspect there will be a 370/3100/3500 form factor style camera with all the bells and whistles we have been asking for to replace the 370/500/2100/2700.
If I were panasonic they could just do two camera's these days a sub £20k inc viewfinder and basic lens 3100 with AVC Intra and 1080p 60fps varicam and the 3500 OB and studio based version.
The sub £10k market would be covered by the 250 as most wobbly cam for broadcast needs that sized camera for the secretaries and runners to use.
We shall see.
March 15, 2012 - 10:42
#17
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
If Panasonic do decide to release a 1080p camera with 60fps (including sound) capability it will have been long overdue. If on the other hand the 60fps capabiluty is merely for slow motion, then I believe that it is too little, too late. The availability of cameras like Red has meant that 120fps minimum is desired for a camera that is marketed as a variable framerate model.
March 15, 2012 - 10:53
#18
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Sorry freeflow but 60fps inc sound?
so when you play it back it is slow?
March 15, 2012 - 11:28
#19
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
I think Freeflow is referring to a 1080p/60 camera. (The FS100 has such a mode) It would mean defining a codec suitable for the recording. (The FS100 uses an extension to AVC-HD.)
The alternative is a true 1080 camera - but with the ability to overcrank up to 60fps in true 1080.
It wouldn't surprise me, and frankly I'm surprised it's taken this long. A few posts ago I said:
Quote:
Maybe a full 1080 varicam will be released at NAB - but nowadays it's the 50Mbs codec that's getting the attention, being seen as the most common standard. And that's as much due to Canon as Sony (let alone Ikegami, Convergent Design, and others. Panasonic really needed a 1080 varicam able to be shipped for the last year or so to avoid losing a substantial proportion of their tape Varicam customers. (Surely, Gary, you must be surprised to not see any Varicam in the top ten hire list?)
As far as I'm concerned, any such product will be too late and most likely too expensive anyway (but thanks for thinking of me, Gary!)
April 1, 2012 - 10:47
#20
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
Here you go just what you need announced today the 1st April: http://blog.creativevideo.co.uk/2012/04/revolutionary-varidof-tm-camera-to-be-shown-at-nab-2012/
Hope it has a broadcast codec or even better something to record as a 16k camera! 
April 29, 2012 - 09:49
#21
Re: PMW320K.... or what?
A friend of mine is after a PMW320K but was told it could be June before there back instock.